#vbl series

[theside-b]

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Starring Kevin Chang, Sing Hom, Eden Chen, and Lawrence Lo, this drama extends the story of AntiReset and is now in production. Follows. Ever 4, the leader of the Ever-robot series, is tasked with serving and controlling the rebellious young master of the Luo family. Will he succeed?

[babyangelsky]

OMG taking off Ever4's glasses activates daddy dom robot butler mode I LOVE THIS SHOW ALREADY

[heretherebedork]

I just loved this moment. Dat needed to get Bach out of there and so he did what he had to do to make sure they could all make a polite exit. A+ strategy. Also, personally, thrilled that Vietnam is doing stepbrothers! @absolutebl It's the new O2 and I just loved this very specific moment. Also, stepbrothers.

[respectthepetty]

I'm glad Yao Shun Yu's mom was rude to rich man president (Xia Shang Zhou), since rich man president's mom was rude to him in the series!

Anon, this is months late, but I was waiting to give you a fun fact about Shun Yu's mom -

She's the producer of ALL the VBL/Vidol shows, the executive producer of We Best Love 1 & 2 and My Tooth Your Love, and the screenwriter for Unknown.

Her name is Cai Fei Qiao and basically, she is fucking amazing! Also, she acted in (and I believe wrote the screenplays for) ALL of the VBL's series:

The mom in You Are Mine

The ghost in Stay by My Side

The Seventh Fairy (with Dong Yong) in VIP Only

The bumper car worker in Anti Reset

She worked on a 2013 show with Sam Lin, so when We Best Love came up, she personally asked him to join the series because she felt he could convey the emotional range needed for the show (drunk kiss, yes!), and she also played an instructor in that series.

You know the scene!

EDIT: @thisonelikesaliens informed me she played the aunt in My Tooth Your Love, which she produced (woman in black on the right).

And I'm sure she played a role in Unknown since she wrote the screenplay for it based on the novel (and did a damn good job of it), but I haven't been able to spot her . . . yet.

She is also working on a second set of VBL/Vidol series, so I'm sure we are going to see this man again since he has already been in two of her series.

She recently did an interview giving more details about the upcoming series, and someone on Reddit was kind enough to translate some bits, but here is the original Japanese interview for anyone interested.

So, everyone, thank Cai Fei Qiao for bringing us our favorite Taiwanese BLs!

[absolutebl]

This Week in BL - Well... at lease we have Wandee & Stand-in?

Organized, in each category, with ones I'm enjoying most at the top.

May 2024 Wk 4

Ongoing Series - Thai

Wandee Godday (Sat YT) ep 4 of 12 - The geept is strong with this one AKA Yak CAN flirt. Wandee now knows he isn’t the only one with a crush on someone else. AND YET they are SO DAMN CUTE together. I do wonder sometime if Yak is running a counter con with Dee pretending to have a crush on Taem. Meanwhile, mad props on the HPV vax public service! Good for them!!! Now that's my kind of product placement. I do have a feeling the sad bit with these two is gonna be VERY sad and last longer than we like. 

My Stand-In (Thai Fri iQIYI) ep 5 of 12 eps - It’s a riveting show. Pleasant? No. Riveting? Yes. Tiny crumbs for Ming’s assistant. Joe is best boy. That is all. I LOVE this show.

We Are (Weds iQIYI) ep 8 of 16 - TOO MANY SOUND EFFECTS. Omg get your fingers off those buttons you computer wanking sound dude (you know it’s a dude) what tf do you think this is? Lovely Writer? Also, they left ALL their drinks! Can you not walk and drink at the same time in a BL? Meanwhile not much happened that hadn’t already happened AKA bit of a filler ep. That said, the friendship group stuff is glorious!!! Also this brand of super gentle flirting suits PondPhuwin better than any of their prior rolls. It reminds me of how much I think they suit a historical. There is a gentle dignity to these two. 

Only Boo! (Sun YouTube) ep 7 of 12 - I love how kindly the turn down was. But most of the dancing stuff was dull. I don’t know I just find the actor playing Kang pretty vacant of appeal I guess. 

Ongoing Series - Not Thai

At 25:00 in Akasaka AKA 25 Ji Akasaka de (Japan Thurs Gaga) ep 6 of 10 - As is not uncommon with JBL I’m being to get frustrated with Yuki the Uke. Sigh. I’m probably gonna stay that way for several episodes given the pacing of this show. 

Living With Him AKA Kare no Iru Seikatsu (Japan Thurs Gaga) ep 7 of 10 - Also frustrating. Willful misunderstanding. We got us some running of the gays but boy is this drawn out. 

Blossom Campus (Korea Thurs Gaga & iQIYI) ep 3-4 of 6 - The puppy is a bit too much sunshine innocent for me. And the professor is a bit creepy. I don't know, I'm not loving this one like I want to.

It's airing but...

You Made My Day (Thai YT) ep 1 of 5 - mini series staring the I Will Knock You couple Tar & Bom, started but I couldn't find it. I also didn't try very hard.

The Time of Fever AKA Unintentional Love Story 2 (Korea movie) trailer released to Korean theaters 5/25. HoTae & DongHee, side couple from Unintentional Love Story are back! Same actors, same character names. I love them. I NEED TO SEE THIS. How?

OMG Vampire (Thai Sun ????) ep 2 of 10 - yeah I can't find it.

In case you missed it

Crossing my fandoms moment, major Kpop blog ran the following: OMEGA X Hangyeom Talks Jazz For Two, Brotherhood, And More With KpopStarz

Tis the season of remakes? Both Addicted Heroin (August, my love!) and My Love Mix-Up (G4!) are coming from Thailand. I am very excited to see both. I love a Thai remake, often more than the original.

Next Week Looks Like This:

Upcoming BLs for 2024 are listed here. This list is not kept updated, so please leave a comment if you know something new or RP with additions.

May Releases

VBL (Taiwan) is releasing 4 'Special Episode' epilogues to their 4 2023 shows every Friday this month on Gagaoolala, Viki & Viu. Not sure on search terms or how to find these. (Or, frankly, if we need them.)

5/10 – You Are Mine

5/17 – VIP Only

5/24 – Stay By My Side

5/31 – Anti Reset

5/28 My Biker 2 (Thai movie YT?) - trailer

5/30 Knock Knock Boys (Thai Thurs WeTV & Gaga) - I do love Best and I'm interested in seeing him in a new pairing. That said, I'm not wild about Seng. Still, this looks like a chaotic pulpy mess, I'm looking forward to wallowing in it one way or another.

5/31 The Time of Huannan (Taiwan movie) - May not be BL

THIS WEEK’S BEST MOMENTS

All Wandee Gooday.

Icky no longer allows screen shots or there would have been a bunch from Stand-in.

(Last week)

Streaming services are listed by how I (usually) watch, which is with a USA based IP, and often offset by a day because time zones are a pain.

The tag BLigade: @doorajar @solitaryandwandering @my-rose-tinted-glasses @babymbbatinygirl @babymbbatinygirl @isisanna-blog @mmastertheone @pickletrip @aliceisathome @urikawa-miyuki @tokillamonger @sunflower-positiiivity

@rocketturtle4 @blglplus @anythinggoesintheshire @everlightly @renafire @mestizashinrin @bl-bam-beyond @small-dark-and-delicious @saezurumurmurs

Sigh, Tumblr in it's infinate wisdom doesn't like too many tags.

There's these tricks, remember:

[my-rose-tinted-glasses]

My memory is terrible so I wanted to do a breakdown of my stuff every once in a while. Might be monthly, might be whenever I feel like it.

QL - Currently Watching

🇹🇭1000 Years Old [10/12] - This is dragging and I am incredibly bored.

🇹🇭23.5 [4/12] - This show is incredibly cute and I'm smiling through the whole thing. Aylin is my favourite and I'm hoping against hope for the teachers to become a couple. Make it happen gmmtv!

🇹🇭Deep Night [6/8] - The long shots are killing me but the story is moving fast. There's a surprising amount of good communication and the throuple is almost inevitable a this point.

🇰🇷Jazz for Two [6/8] - This is the first bl show where I read the source material before the show and I wish I hadn't. The changes that were made just don't make sense to me, because I don't see how it serves the story. But putting that aside, the story feels rushed and the pacing is weird. The second couple doesn't read believable with this time frame. Anyway I might edit this post when I watch the last 2 episodes. [EDIT] Completed. Final thoughts here. 🇯🇵Love is Better The Second Time Around [4/6] - Why must you do this again Japan? 6 episodes for this one? I'm not happy about this. This show is so good. I love how the mains communicate, not to mention they are beautiful to watch.

🇯🇵My Strawberry Film[7/8] - I have no idea what this show is about nor it seems does it. Do I care at this point? Nope, not really. Let it be over.

🇹🇭To Be Continued [6/8] - This is getting into The Promise territory and I'm not amused. Another one that is dragging and I like the second couple but they barely have any screen time. I'll finish it because there are only two episodes left but I'll be sprinting to the finish line.

🇹🇼Unknown [7/12] - It hurts so good. The songs were killing me this episode. I really liked the separation, I think it was necessary for them. Yuan seems more mature and it will be interesting to see how it changes the relationship.

QL - Finished

🇹🇭Cherry Magic Th – What a wonderful surprise this was. Tay and New are beautiful together and their chemistry was on point. I really liked how the source material was used here.

🇯🇵Cherry Magic Anime – It was quite faithful to the manga with only a couple of deviations and of course it didn't cover everything but I really enjoyed watching yet another version of these characters.

🇹🇭Dead Friend Forever – It was quite a ride. I specially enjoyed the communal watching of this one and all the theories as more people tuned in. Didn't love the ending but it was better than I thought. Still not over White though. 🇯🇵Although I Love You, and You? - Started great, the middle was meh, and by the end I wasn't invested enough in the couple so even though it ended happy, it didn't make up for the rest of it. 🇯🇵Perfect Propose - Great all the way through. I loved this characters a lot and still think it's amazing how well the time was used here. 🇯🇵Ossan's Love Returns - It's Japan at it's finest. Love, food, chaos, found family and cherry blossoms. What more can I ask for? 🇯🇵She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat - My heart grew.🖤

🇹🇼Anti Reset - This is one of the most frustrating shows I've watched in a while. This started off strange and most of the show doesn't seem to know what it wanted to say about the AI part of it. It drove crazy on a weekly basis. But I thought their chemistry was really good and they are just an adorable couple. These 4 VBL series [Stay By My Side, You Are Mine, Vip Only] were a mixed bag for me. I think Stay By My Side is my favourite overall.

🇨🇳The Spirealm - First of all, Ruan Lan Zhu is absolutely gorgeous and his outfits are always perfection. The visuals are really good. This was definitely not a cheap production. The sets for all the doors are incredible. Talking only about the game, I gotta say the second door was my favourite. The bromance toes the line, but I'm not surprised this was taken down. I think if they'd kiss it would be less obvious than some of their scenes. I'm not going to spoil the ending but if you're thinking about watching here's your warning. A bit after the halfway point it gets incredibly sad and the ending is just heart-breaking.

Dropped 🇹🇭A Secretly Love [3/10] 🇹🇭Kiseki Chapter 2 [2/6] Also haven't started Two Worlds because I'm waiting to know if I should bother. I'm experiencing a bit of Thai bl fatigue so we'll see.

Rose Watches OJBL

Takumi-kun 1: And The Spring Breeze Whispers (2007) - The editing is choppy as hell and it gets hard to understand the characters motivations. And the acting is not good. Yeah, not a fan of this one. Udagawachou de Matteteyo (2015) - This one is weird. I recently watched Life as a Girl so I admit that the comparison doesn't help this one at all. The idea is interesting but the execution is poor. There's a couple of scenes that are a bit hard to watch. In this particular story I think if we had a bit more insight to the characters motivations it would've helped me connect and feel more invested. In the end, for my particular goal it was fine I guess.

Other - Watched

🩷Tengu's Kitchen (2023) | Fudanshi Bartender no Tashinami (2022) Formula 17 (2004) | Mars: Zero no Kakumei (2024) | 🩷Joshi-teki Seikatsu (2018)

1 Year of Rose-Tinted Glasses

It's been a year of Rose this month. And it's been kinda great. It took me a while to get over my shyness here and I still feel intimidated but it's gotten better. The people in this space have been really kind to me and I appreciate it so much. Thank you so much for the space.

That's it for right now. As usual my ask box is open for gif requests and any other questions. Happy Easter to all who celebrate.

Have a good week💜

[the-conversation-pod]

Going High-Low with Taiwan

And we're back! It’s been awhile since we checked in on Taiwan, and the latest offerings have really run the gamut in terms of quality. Ben, NiNi, and Shan sat down to discuss the state of Taiwanese BL via two recent shows, Anti Reset and Unknown.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Intro 00:02:11 - Anti Reset and VBL 00:13:13 - Unknown the Series 00:20:16 Unknown: The Pseudo Incest Trope 00:27:53 Unknown: San Pang, Li Li, and Family in the Narrative 00:35:48 Unknown: The Ending Stumble 00:43:32 Unknown: Adapting the Da Ge Novel 00:46:15 Unknown: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:51:53 - Whither Taiwanese BL?

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Intro

Ben 

And we're back! This week we will be discussing the state of Taiwanese BL by highlighting two projects that recently finished for us. 

NiNi 

Shan is here with us. Say hi, Shan. 

Shan 

Hello people! 

NiNi 

Shan has to be here because y'all know I don't watch that much Taiwanese BL. [laughs]

Shan 

And I watch it all. 

Ben 

We're going to be talking about the sci-fi BL Anti Reset and we're going to be talking about the Priest adaptation Unknown the series, based on Priest’s novel Da Ge. 

NiNi 

I am unfamiliar with Anti Reset. I did not watch it. 

Ben 

NiNi: it's a Taiwanese BL. I don't like it! [Shan laughs] I didn't watch it. 

NiNi 

I did watch Unknown and I have thoughts about that. 

00:02:11 - Anti Reset and VBL

NiNi 

Maybe Shan, you could dig in here before we let Ben get into the recap on Anti Reset. 

Shan 

Anti Reset is part of a recent series of Taiwanese BLs that came from a company called VBL. Stay By My Side, You Are Mine, VIP Only, and then Anti Reset. This was a connected series, all these stories happened in the same universe. The characters did cameos in each other's shows and they all aired in the same time slot one right after the other, over the last several months. 

I was not particularly impressed with the quality of these shows and I thought that as the series went on, each show got a little bit worse. [laughs] By the time I was in VIP Only I had really lost interest in what these shows were doing. The stories were weak, the production values were low, they weren't really hitting the usual Taiwanese high watermarks for great casting, good couple chemistry, solid intimacy scenes… The things you can normally reliably count on Taiwan for, were not really showing up in these shows. 

So I was, had kind of already lost my faith in this series when Anti Reset started. I think I got two episodes into it and I just decided to just stop watching. It was givin’ me a weird vibe. I was like, “You know what? I don't know what this show is doing and I don't think I wanna find out.” 

That's where I think I should hand it off to Ben to talk more about what the show actually ended up doing.

Ben 

Oh, man. Trying to describe the premise of this show inherently gives it more credit than it deserves. [Shan and Ben laugh] The premise of the show is that Chu Yi Ping is some sort of humanities professor at a local college. His arm gets injured from pulling his shoulder and his uncle, who runs a experimental tech company, decides that to give him some assistance while he's recovering, they're going to send an experimental house assistant android to his house, which appears in the shape of a really hot guy named Ever 9. 

The show wants to go on to be this exploration about how misanthropy presents in people. How do you find humanity in artificial intelligences that are designed to befriend us? It wants to do this exploration of personhood—I don't think it does—and ends up fundamentally becoming a mail-order bride show that doesn't realize it is one. This show thinks it's doing deep analysis of AI personhood and romance, but it's not. It's just presenting things. It is kind of a mess and I ended up really not liking it. 

NiNi 

I'm a big sci-fi girl. I like these kinds of explorations of the human condition. It's what all the best sci-fi is about. So, basically what you're telling me is don't watch the show. [laughs]

Shan 

Ben, I feel like when I was observing discourse about this show, it did seem like it was working for some people, and I'm curious if you have thoughts about what parts of the show maybe did work better than others. 

Ben 

I think that if you found the leads attractive and you enjoyed the chemistry that the leads were going for—ignoring literally any of the context about what was going on around their interactions—you could enjoy that. But I don't think the show does a great job of addressing its own context. 

You've got this android living in your house who is doing your house chores and making your food for you, and otherwise taking care of you. So you basically have purchased a housewife. But then he decides he's in love with the housewife and wants to pursue the concept that the android has a personality and is capable of reciprocating his feelings and such. But they don't do a good job creating this crossover point where Ever 9 cares about Chu Yi Ping because of who Ever 9 is and not because of what Ever 9 was programmed to be. 

The issue, too, with Chu Yi Ping is he's got this fundamental misanthropy that isn't really addressed or challenged. What is it about Ever 9 that allows him to not hate him the way he hates other people? The fact that Ever 9 is programmed to put up with all of his shit all the time? That's kinda weird, particularly because they went for a multi-year separation at the end, and I'm like, he didn't grow from this. He's just a sad little weirdo the whole time. 

Shan 

They did a multi-year separation between… a man and a robot? 

Ben 

They did. 

NiNi 

I was about to say— [all laugh]

Shan

I mean! I’m like, what? But, like—, Did—, How—, But—, I—

NiNi

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I have another related question. 

Ben 

Please, go on. [Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

This is not a story about an AI achieving self-awareness or sentience or crossing the human-digital divide in some way. 

Ben 

It wants to be that. It really wants to be a story about Ever 9 exceeding his programming. They very much think there's, like, a Pinocchio thing going on with him. 

Shan 

He's still a robot. 

NiNi 

Even Pinocchio turned into a real boy at the end. 

Shan

Right, this is what I don't understand. 

NiNi 

So what is the point, then? If nothing actually changes about Ever 9. 

Ben 

This is one of the fundamental questions I've been asking about BL lately. [all laugh] And here we are again. 

Shan 

What is the point? [laughs]

NiNi 

This is the thing that people don't get about sci-fi a lot. Sci-fi is more philosophy than science. It's a lot more about humanity and the things that humanity does to each other and how humanity evolves than it is about the cool things that the science can do. And whenever I see sci-fi that does not understand that, you can tell. 

Shan 

I think—and I wonder how you feel about this, Ben—one of the tension points here may be trying to take a narrative like this and turn it into a straightforward romance between a person and an object. When I've seen stories with this conceit done well, the romance is maybe not the primary point, and it's more about, like NiNi is saying, the philosophical questions underpinning it. I think about something like Lars and the Real Girl, which is more about the nature of loneliness and the nature of grief and how a community can come together to support somebody in finding a way to be happy. But it's not about the actual romance between the person and the thing. It feels like maybe what's difficult here is they want to examine those things, but at the same time they just want this to be a standard BL where they're just executing romance tropes. Those things don't go together that well. 

Ben 

I agree. I feel like Chu Yi Ping’s misanthropy and disconnectedness from other people should have been the crux of the storytelling, and they were more focused on making the android say hyung and oppa instead. 

NiNi 

For me, if you're gonna do a robot story like this, maybe you actually put somebody else into the story who the main character then falls in love with. The main character is able to interact with the robot to actually, themselves, become a real boy. But somebody in the story has to become a real boy! [laughs] That's the whole—you know what I mean?

Shan 

There's a kdrama that I really love called I'm Not a Robot. And that is pretty much how they handled that. There's a robot, there's a real girl. And in the end, the romance is with the real girl, not the robot. [laughs] 

It just feels like they tried to do that sort of story, but also somehow make the robot the main person without having them actually achieve personhood, and that just doesn't really work. 

NiNi 

It's either that or take it dystopian. Take it in the opposite direction. But then I guess that's not a BL. 

Shan 

Right. So you can also take it in the real fucked up direction, but yeah, you have to commit and it sounds like they just tried to do it all in some kind of weird blend that didn't come together. 

NiNi 

So, I'm guessing this one's a chop, Ben. 

Ben 

Oh, it's 100% a chop. I think I ended up giving it a 5? This is a show that I do not recommend at all. If you just want to see pretty decently attractive Taiwanese actors kind of moon at each other a little bit and make out a little bit, by all means! Go in and have a great time. But that's what you're getting out of it, at most. It's not good sci-fi, and I don't like it. At all. 

Shan 

I'm feeling happy with my choices. I'm gonna not return and finish this one. I think I'm gonna let it lie. It sounds like it was the right choice to not finish it for me. 

Ben 

What did we get out of the VBL project? My only positive takeaway from it is, I'm really glad that they got some money together to continue making small budget Taiwanese BL. I don't want small budget Taiwanese BL to give up, but also, these were not the best offerings that we've gotten out of that. 

Shan 

They need some better scripts. 

Ben 

We gotta do better. I really did not want to be super harsh about VBL and a bunch of their projects but, they're kind of really frustrating in a lot of ways. Stay By My Side ends abruptly. You Are Mine does not do the boss-employee romance any real justice. VIP Only ended up being kinda boring and wasn't really satisfying in its conclusion. And this one just really did not understand the expectations of sci-fi storytelling.

When we looked at the descriptions of all these shows ahead of time, we were like, there's a lot of ways that they could fuck this up royally, but these would actually be pretty good, or at least interesting and compelling in some ways. But they weren't. There's some sort epilogue episode or some shit they're gonna be releasing?

Shan 

A little special to try to sell merch, I think. 

NiNi 

I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do. 

Shan

Yeaaaaah. 

Ben 

Not impressed, and we are moving on. 

NiNi 

You're not even gonna rate it? 

Ben 

Oh, I gave it a 5. 

NiNi 

5 for Anti Reset from The Conversation. 

Ben 

And the 5 is, the leads were actually pretty solid with each other. 

NiNi 

Wow, that is damning with the faintest of praise. 

[all laugh]

Ben 

It's not good, y’all. 

00:13:13 - Unknown the Series

NiNi

Let's leave that behind and move on to something that all of us actually watched and I think liked a little bit more. Moving on to Unknown the series. 

Ben, give us the rundown, what is Unknown the series about?

Ben

Unknown is a found family narrative that has to deal with the way these relationships change as people grow up. This brother and sister end up deciding to adopt a homeless kid who's in their neighborhood. Wei Qian is like a high schooler trying to take care of his little sister ‘cause their parents are dead, and they decide to also take care of this kid, Xiao Yuan. Xiao Yuan is appreciative of this and is glad to become a brother to this family. But as he grows and matures, he ends up developing deep affection for Wei Qian, and we spend the bulk of the story dealing with Xiao Yuan struggling with his feelings for Wei Qian, and how this impacts the community around them. 

Beyond the three siblings, we have their neighbor San Pang, whose family has opted to never raise the rent on the Wei siblings to make sure that they have a place to stay. Wei Qian spends much of his adolescence when he's not in school working for the local gang: complications ensue as a result of this. 

Shan, further thoughts?

Shan

Really, at its heart, this is a relationship change narrative. So, it's all about how this family decide to take each other as family and then as they grow up, some of the relationships start to shift and change, not only between Wei Qian and Wei Yuan, but also between Wei Li Li and San Pang. Wei Qian really takes his responsibilities as the older brother—but also the default patriarch of this family—very seriously. He is a caretaker, he is the person providing financially for the family. San Pang is his best friend, someone who's known him his whole life, who completely understands his devotion to his siblings and also loves them, as well, as an older brother figure. 

There are some other characters in the mix. Qian and San Pang end up going into business with a third partner, named Lao Xiong. There's also the local gang—the lead gangster is called Le—and then there's Doctor Lin, played by our beloved Sam Lin, who's also in the mix as a side character who comes in and out of the story. 

I don't know, NiNi, if you wanted to add anything about your overall impressions of what the story is tackling, the themes.

NiNi

I came into this one later than you guys did, so I was catching up on kind of a binge. And also the rhythms of Taiwanese BL and Taiwanese drama are a little harder for me, so it takes me a while to get into things emotionally. So I was doing a little bit of an uphill climb? I understood where the story was going and what they were trying to do. I didn't all the way feel it? There were points that I would hit, definitely a point at the end or near the end that I felt it, but going through the pockets of the story as it was happening, I didn't get the depth of feeling about this that I would get about a story. That's not necessarily to do with it being a Taiwanese story, ‘cause there's Taiwanese stories that I have that depth of feeling about. Just this one didn't hit me in the exact same way that I think it hit you guys.

Shan

I felt this story deeply. I was very emotionally connected to the characters, very, very invested in this story and really did love it. I have, unfortunately, some serious critiques [laughs] for the way that the story ended up, but really loved it along the way, was super invested. And part of that might come from my relative comfort with the tropes that were at play.

NiNi

It might be, because I'm an eldest sibling and I understand the feelings of responsibility and wanting to be somebody who takes care of your siblings and an example for them and to be strong for them and all of that. If there is any character that I really glommed onto, it was Wei Qian. But then what that left me with was a disconnect from some of his thought processes and actions later down in the story? There were things that I wanted to understand more that I didn't understand about the way that he was processing certain things. That's my thing. That's not a problem with the story, I think that's my reaction to the story.

Ben

I think in the early parts of the story I was really with everything that it was doing. I got Wei Qian’s whole deal fairly quickly. He's, like, 13 to 15 and his mom is dead. His dad is dead or not in the picture. And he's got a little sister that he has to take care of. And the neighbors are willing to help accommodate this but he's gotta get money some sort of way, so he ends up wrapped up with the local gang. I also got the way they would feel sympathy for another kid who's on the street struggling as well. I totally get them adopting someone else who seems like he's going through some shit the way they are too. 

I got the way Yuan’s thankfulness about being saved from the street and the way Wei Qian was willing to sacrifice himself for Yuan, and I totally get that turning into a kind of devotion that shifts over time, and mingles with his latent queerness. I was able to follow Yuan down that route. And I liked the way the show treated all of those developments really seriously. From Wei Qian having some sort of sexual related trauma and being really resistant to advances from women… And I also got the way that that sort of blew up in their faces when Yuan's feelings became known to them. 

I really enjoyed the early parts of the story. I think Ray Jiang directed this? Ray’s tendency to use longer shots of characters working in the space together worked really well for me here, and the actors had really good timing for me to get a strong sense of the dynamics between their characters. So I was really able to pull a lot of the expected emotional beats out of a lot of little things in this show early on.

00:20:16 Unknown: The Pseudo Incest Trope

Ben

I actually waited until like week six, I think, Shan, was when you told me it was time to start watching? I have deep qualms with the stepbrothers trope. I don't usually connect to it or enjoy it.

NiNi

I don't have an issue with the stepbrothers trope, but this didn't feel like stepbrothers to me. The relationship between Wei Qian and Yuan felt almost paternalistic, and that was, I think, deliberately something that Wei Qian did put that distance between them. I did not see how Wei Qian overcame that, he did it so deliberately and he reinforced it so deliberately over and over throughout the years, and I feel like the turn into romance didn't quite work for me?

Ben

Why do you think the stepbrothers taboo doesn't normally bother you the way it might for other people?

NiNi

It depends on how long they've been raised together. A lot of times when we're getting these stepbrothers trope stories, they're new stepbrothers or they haven't been stepbrothers for very long, or they were close to adults when their parents got together. And so it's… doesn't feel like a sibling relationship to me.

Ben

Shan, you've watched a lot of dramas.

Shan

Sure have.

Ben

What's your read of the stepbrother stuff?

Shan

I wanted to talk about accurate categorization here, because this is not actually a stepbrothers trope. The stepbrothers trope is very popular in yaoi manga, and consequently in BL. But Unknown is more, I think, accurately categorized as a pseudo incest story. And that goes beyond BL. That is actually quite popular [laughs] in Asian dramas more broadly, and also shows up quite a lot in het romance. And it's more about people who are coming together in some kind of family arrangement, and then the point of the trope is that the relationship changes over time and we follow that relationship change. 

There's this impression, I think, that people like it mostly because, “Ooh, it's so titillating. It's so taboo.” For folks who enjoy the pseudo incest trope—and I count myself one of them, I've watched a lot of these kinds of dramas—the appeal of it is that a relationship change narrative is really interesting. It's a lot of deep emotional stuff when you are talking about someone who's really important to you in one specific way, and then trying to transform that relationship to have them be important to you in a different way. That can feel really risky and really dangerous, to put at threat the relationship that you already have for the relationship that you now want. That is not a dynamic that is exclusive to the pseudo incest trope!

NiNi

It feels like an extension of friends to lovers.

Shan

Exactly.

NiNi

A higher risk, higher degree of difficulty friends to lovers.

Shan

Exactly right, NiNi. I also love the friend to lovers trope. I also like enemies to lovers, which is maybe not as deep, but still revolves around that relationship change. I think for a lot of people, that's the appeal. It's a higher stakes version of the friends to lovers trope. 

I think Unknown did a fantastic job with this trope… for the first three quarters of its story. Unfortunately, where it fell down was in the most important part, which is that relationship turn. We followed Yuan through his relationship turn. We saw his feelings for Qian change over time. We saw him try his best to cope with them alone. We saw when he could no longer do that and the feelings poured out of him and that caused a huge rupture. We saw him take time away. We saw his devotion stay strong through a separation and through many years apart. We saw him come back as an adult and decide to pursue the relationship he wanted because he was so certain that he still wanted it. We saw that whole process for Yuan. 

Where the show really dropped the ball is that we didn't see that same deep process happen for Wei Qian. We saw it start, we saw him learn about his younger brother's feelings for him and have an initial response of shock and anger and some revulsion. We saw him push Yuan away. We saw him miss him terribly and regret pushing him away. We saw him start to change the way he saw him when he came back as an adult, and start to get more comfortable with seeking him out as a partner instead of as a younger brother. And then we just saw an abrupt flipped switch, where suddenly he was comfortable not only being in a romance, but in a sexual relationship. And I think that's where they really dropped the ball, is in that transition at the end. And unfortunately, that was the most important part of the story. [laughs] So it's a pretty shitty place to drop the ball, show! 

But, this show did so many of my favorite things—found family, intergenerational family trauma, a serious relationship change narrative. These are like three of my most favorite things in drama. The characters were struggling through poverty, that's another big thing that I love to see depicted well in drama, and the show took it seriously. This show, it felt like, was almost made in a lab to, like, hook me in the heart. And I still have a lot of warm feelings about it and love it, even though it kind of let me down in the end. 

But I'm curious, Ben, to hear you reflect, because I know versions of this trope have caused trouble for you before. I feel like you did better with this than you maybe thought you would, Ben.

Ben

So as someone who has had slurs thrown at him with real intent, I am particularly sensitive to narratives that wanna play with taboo that reflects some of the worst disingenuous presumptions about how queer people behave. I don't always enjoy these sort of narratives where they wanna deal with family members coming of age and developing feelings for each other and then wanting to pursue them. I often struggle with stepsibling relationships in particular because their parents had a romance. I don't usually enjoy the discord that the stepbrothers relationship is introducing to the genuine attempt by their parents to blend their families. 

I don't think this show prickled that because they're more akin to orphans than stepsiblings. I'm less perturbed by orphans who use familial terms to establish closeness and present themselves as a unit to other people, wanting to change that down the road. Also, a smart thing the show did was they used three actors to play Yuan to reflect his growth and change over time, which was a very good choice for this kind of story.

00:27:53 Unknown: San Pang, Li Li, and Family in the Narrative

Shan

The other piece of this trope—the pseudo incest trope—that adds a layer, is that the taboo associated with incest does become part of the story. The external community and their other loved ones become an important part of the decision-making around the relationship change. You're gonna see other people being uncomfortable with the change in the relationship, so it adds this layer of complexity. 

Here, the most important and main stand-in for that, we have San Pang, who has been raised alongside them as their neighbor, who also sees himself as an older brother to Yuan and Li Li, who is the first person to catch on to Yuan’s feelings. He is the one who puts it together and sees the way Yuan’s feelings are changing, and he's the one who tells Qian. In the wake of his coming out to Qian—admitting that he is gay, but not saying who he likes—San Pang is the one who says, “I'm pretty sure you're the person he likes, bro,” and he tries to interfere. He goes to Yuan on his own and he says,”I am seeing this. I want you to understand that it's not something you can pursue. You're going to put so much stress on your brother if you let him find out.” 

There are some great scenes between San Pang and Yuan where they have really important conversations about why it's quote unquote wrong for him to feel this way about Qian, why San Pang feels so uncomfortable with it. He tries to intervene. It doesn't work, and then San Pang’s the one who helps Qian come up with a plan to send Yuan abroad. He was a very important part of that storyline. 

He also is a very important part of the storyline when Yuan comes back as an adult, because he, in those intervening years, has gone through his own journey of his changing feelings for somebody that he also considered a quasi-sibling, and has maybe mellowed out a little bit about what it would mean for the two of them to be together. He sees that the feelings are still there, sees how miserable Qian was when Yuan was gone, and he kind of changes his tune and says, “Maybe I was wrong to try to get in the way of this. Maybe this is the thing that will make you, my best friend in the world who I love, happy, and maybe that's right.” He was such a crucial character in this narrative and I just really loved the way the show used his character as a stand-in for what you would normally see happen with parents in a drama like this.

NiNi

He just wanted to protect everybody. He wants to protect them individually, he wants to protect their family unit. It's very sweet.

Ben

He's like the big cousin who also doesn't know what to do. Wei Qian is stuck with this role, having to care for his sister and the brother that they adopted. That takes a huge amount of personal fortitude to choose to do all of that. San Pang clearly sees this from a young age, and he's always trying to help the best he can. But he's just as young as them and it’s not like he brings any special knowledge to the table. He has these instincts that are grounded in the expected orthodoxy of a family unit, and he's trying to help them replicate that, because he earnestly believes that maybe these things can help them. 

Like, he recognizes that Wei Qian is alone with this huge responsibility he's carrying, and reasonably decides that maybe if he gets a partner who can appreciate that, the mental load on Wei Qian would be better. And as far as he knows, Wei Qian likes girls, so he tries to find women who might be interested in him. That doesn't go well. It's the same thing with always showing up at the clinic when Wei Qian gets the shit beat out of him with the gangster stuff. And even with Yuan, Yuan's feelings come up and he tries to help them, and even when they suggest sending Yuan away, they just wanted him to get some room from Wei Qian to maybe feel something for someone else. Yuan being gay was not their biggest concern. Yuan having feelings for Wei Qian was their primary concern. 

I joked, when he came back sassier and even gayer, that he clearly found his people [laughs] while was in New York. 

Shan

[laughs] Mmhmm. 

Ben

And I ended up really loving San Pang for that. Despite his reticence about Wei Qian, he ends up developing feelings for Li Li, and I think it's because they had those big fights where he was forced to reckon with the nature of these taboos and the orthodoxy they enforce, and whether or not they applied here or not. I feel like San Pang ending up in a relationship with Li Li is intentional by the narrative to draw that line and say, “If this is okay, why not this?”

Shan 

We should talk more about Li Li. One of the things I do credit this show with is caring about the whole family as a unit, and not only about the romance. Her involvement in the story and her relationship with her brothers was just a really important aspect to drive that point home. 

I loved Li Li as a character. She's the little sister that everybody takes care of, including Yuan. She's the one who let him in. When he first followed Wei Qian home, she claimed him as her brother first and brought him into the family. She has a very close but also very different relationship with each of her brothers. And we saw how those bonds held and shifted over time. And when their relationship changed and they decided to be together romantically, Li Li accepted it.

I think she always knew that their relationship was different. What was interesting, I think, and such a good choice, is that she never seemed to feel threatened by that. She was comfortable and secure, knowing that they both loved her. Even though their relationship could maybe sometimes crowd her out. 

Ben 

I really liked that moment in episode 11. We got this little breakdown from her about how nobody cares about Qian. She started to really process, as an adult now, that Wei Qian hid a lot of his suffering from them. 

I actually really like that Li Li got to do teenage rebellion. It says a lot about how effectively Wei Qian did his role as provider that she got to be a bratty teen. 

NiNi 

I feel like as a family story this hits me more than as a romance. Wei Qian’s relationship with both Yuan and Li Li feels parental more than sibling. Li Li and Yuan feel like siblings. 

Shan 

One of the interesting choices that I really appreciate in the story—in the early stages—is that while Wei Qian, I think, was trying to be a parental figure to both of them, Yuan never really accepted that, even when he was younger. And we saw that theme repeat throughout the show of Yuan saying, “You don't have to do it alone. I'm here to help you.” He always, always, always wanted to be a partner to Wei Qian. 

NiNi 

That is true, but this is coming from Yuan’s side. I absolutely see how Yuan made sure, maybe not even consciously, he wanted it to be clear where the boundaries were and the boundary was that, “We are family, we love each other, but you are not my parent, you are not my brother, you are somebody that I am partnered with. We are doing this together in this way.” Yuan always made that distinction. Wei Qian [laughs] is my problem here.

00:35:48 Unknown: The Ending Stumble

Shan 

We should get into where the show stumbled hard, because that's what it all comes down to, right? This big stumble in episode 11. 

NiNi 

Yeah, it just kind of sits over everything and it sits over my entire perception of the story now. I feel like I can't even think of the rest of the story without thinking about how it didn't take me where it needed to go at the end. Yuan comes back to Taiwan and it feels like for Wei Qian, maybe some things have changed, but he's doing a lot to not let this thing happen. And it doesn't feel like a thing that he's fighting against—’cause if it felt like something that he was fighting against, I feel like I could buy it. If it's something that his heart really desires, but his brain is telling him he can't do, like, that works, right? But it doesn't feel like that. 

I don't get where he got shaken. Like, I got the emotional shake. When Yuan gets kidnapped, ‘cause that's a thing that happens, you feel that fear that he had in that moment that he would lose Yuan. I understood why in that moment he would accept that he maybe had these emotions, these feelings that he needed to interrogate for Yuan, and they were churning him up inside, and they got broken out by this thing that happened that shook him. The emotional turn, totally believed. The turn where that goes romantic and sexual, that's the part that—it didn't carry me there. 

Shan 

I do agree with that last bit of what you said. I don't see it the same way as you in terms of not seeing the arc of his feelings starting to change. I think that was very clearly the arc of episodes 7 through 10 for Qian. During their separation, we saw how not functional, frankly, he was without Yuan around. He survived, he got through every day, but he was deeply unhappy. Everybody in his life could see it. He was regretful, he was missing him all the time. And punishing himself and withholding himself from talking to Yuan.

When Yuan came back, he started to interact with him differently. We saw the way that his physical awareness of him was different. We saw him start to seek him out more. We did see him start letting him in on some adult problem solving like he wouldn't have before. He still had his walls up, of course, he was still trying to consciously deny that he was willing to change their relationship in that way. But I do think the show took us through and showed us some very clear moments where his feelings were starting to shift and he was still fighting it. And then, of course, the kidnapping incident really shook him up. 

I think where the failure for me happened was in the moment where this suddenly turned into a sexual desire that we hadn't seen build, at all. And so that is the missing piece for me. They needed a couple more beats in the story there, between him coming to this emotional realization of his desire to keep Yuan next to him forever, and for that to then build into a sexual attraction that he was comfortable acting on. And I think that latter part is where they really dropped the ball. They have him literally say, “I'm not ready yet. I haven't figured out what I'm comfortable with yet.” And then like, literally two minutes later, he's like, “Fuck it, never mind.” And they're just going to town on each other. 

That didn't work for me at all. It was a very strange choice. It was a mistake. The show just really fumbled, and it sucks because they fumbled at the most important part of the story after building it so beautifully for ten weeks to just drop the ball that hard. It's a little bit baffling to me? 

Ben 

Episode 10 ends at the huge emotional turn for Wei Qian. And it was really frustrating for the show to conflate the emotional turn and the sexual turn and try and follow that immediately with the sex in the next episode. That was not the right choice. If the show had done the emotional turn and then spent at least half the episode dealing with this building sexual tension, that would have been interesting. 

The show was obsessed with staying on Yuan's perspective the whole time. It would have been totally fine if Yuan was crackling with sexual energy at the knowledge that Wei Qian had finally hit the emotional turn. But instead they really wanted to have reward sex and then focus on this stupid health scare plot. The problem is, the sex scene isn't good because there's no arc to it. Yuan has been ready to fuck this man for ten years and Wei Qian hasn't been ready to fuck anyone for, like, 15 years. 

They brought up this whole notion that part of Wei Qian's closed-off nature about sex is because his mom possibly abused him. And I just really did not enjoy the show rushing into this sudden sexual comfortability with Wei Qian after showing us that he did not have a good relationship with sex, and I feel like that needed to be resolved before those two were going to be able to have that sort of moment. As a result, the sex scene doesn't create much of an emotional arc, and the show knows this too, because they fucking fill it with stupid Yuan flashbacks. This should be about the change in Wei Qian, not the culmination of Yuan's feelings. 

Wei Qian's reticence about sex is not handled by the story, whether it be discovering queerness in himself or processing the sexual trauma from his mom or getting over whatever blocks about the kid you see as your brother wants to be with you. That part of it was missing when they had set up for it with the end of episode 10, where Wei Qian let down whatever big emotional barrier was between, “I need to protect Yuan,” versus, “I don't wanna be without Yuan.” They were prepped for it, totally, to go into that next area. And then they just didn't, and decided to make it about Wei Qian having a blood clot. 

NiNi 

All the pieces were actually there, they're just in the wrong order. There's a scene after the fact where they're doing this dating SIM game or whatever at work and Wei Qian is having these flashbacks to the sex scene. Why did they not let him have that moment as a fantasy moment before—

Shan 

Yes! 

NiNi

—rather than a flashback moment after? 

Ben 

That's what I also thought at the time. But you know how angry I get on this podcast [Ben and Shan laugh] about having to mentally rejigger the show [NiNi laughs] to make it fucking work. I will not!

Shan 

Besties! That's what they do in the book! That is exactly what they do in the book! [laughs]

Ben 

That's so fuckin’ aggravating. [laughs] I’m so fucking mad! 

Shan 

It’s so aggravating! All the things we're saying they should have done, they fucking did in the book! And I don't [claps hands together] know why the show didn't do it. I'm so mad! 

Ben 

She clappin’, yo, she mad. 

[all laugh]

00:43:32 Unknown: Adapting the Da Ge Novel

Shan 

We haven't talked too much yet about the novel, but I do wanna talk a little bit about some of the adaptation choices that were made here. This show is an adaptation of the novel Da Ge by Priest, who is a very well known danmei author. Other live action adaptations of her books include Word of Honor, Guardian, Justice in the Dark... several others, a lot of them have now been shelved or didn't get to finish airing because of the ban in China. So, it was extremely exciting for fans of her works to see a Taiwanese production take up an adaptation of one of her books, because we know that we're not gonna get good adaptations of danmei anymore out of China, because they are banning queer content and censoring it all to hell—even more than other countries. 

They made a lot of really smart adaptation choices in the way that they structured the show. The book is a lot more complex, in the way that most Priest novels are. There's a lot more characters, the plots are far more intricate, there's a lot more going on. There's an additional member of the family in the book. There's another best friend in the building. There are, like, three different gangs [laughs] instead of one. There's this whole corporate real estate plot that's tied to Wei Qian's work. It's a lot more complex. 

The show did, I think, a fantastic job of making choices to streamline the story, to make it simple enough to fit into a 12 episode arc while still retaining the core themes and the core relationships. And it also did some really great work around the cultural pieces. Mainland China has a lot more deep homophobia, fatphobia, some real weirdness around the way, in media, that sex and gay sex in particular get discussed, and this show really smoothed all of that out. 

Where they really blew it on the adaptation is at this end arc. You see all these aspects of Wei Qian's emotional journey that we are lamenting the show missed. I don't really understand why the show decided to ignore that material in favor of doing what it did instead. A lot of the stuff in the final arc was not in the book at all. If you are someone who loved this story and is disappointed in the ending, I just can't recommend highly enough that you read that book. 

Ben 

That's the theme of this episode. [laughs] If you enjoyed these shows, go do something else. 

Shan 

[laughs] Do something else! No, but do watch Unknown. I do love this show. I don't wanna say that you shouldn’t watch it, but you should go read the book too, ‘cause it'll fill in some pieces that we're missing here.

00:46:15 Unknown: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

I totally get NiNi maybe not being super connected to what was goin’ on, and if they had not fucked up episode 11, it just would have been an interesting conversation about, where does this gap form? But now we're bogged down in the fact that it's easy to point to the lack of payoff. I watched episode 12 this morning before we're recording this session. And I was like, “Okay, I guess this is fine.” [Shan laugh] This is meant to feel like, almost, epilogue. And I enjoyed the big family hand hold. But I really feel like they really failed at the final steps of the “Yuan and Wei Qian are now a couple” turn, which is really annoying because there were so many things that it did great. 

In the very final episode, there's this really great sequence when we learn that Li Li is pregnant and they have the reaction in the hallway and everybody's coming out of different doors that you don't expect. 

Shan 

That is the funniest scene. 

Ben 

Every time Wei Qian wanted to kill San Pang? [Shan laughs] Some of the best scenes in this show. Like, fucking Yuan sitting on the couch eatin’ his tomatoes, he was enjoying the chaos. We got this other woman who might be with Wei Qian, “I can take care of my brother.”

[Ben and Shan laugh] 

Shan 

He's like, “Don't you worry about it.” I did love those moments of Yuan being like, “Oh, I'm not the family problem now, ha!” [laughs] He's just like sitting back and enjoying it. 

Even at the end, I was frustrated with the last two episodes, but I still had a lot of affection for these characters and this family. This isn't an ending that completely ruined the show, for me. 

Ben 

Shan has a bat she holds called coulda been a 10 that she bashes sh— 

Shan

Yes! [laughs] 

Ben

—bashes shows with.

Shan 

Goddammit! One of the pieces of my frustration here is that this was on track to possibly be the best Taiwanese BL ever made. 

NiNi

Okay, so ratings. Shan, let's have you go first. What do you rate Unknown?

Shan

I gave it a 9. I had to take out my coulda been a 10 bat. 

I think that the narrative and the character work was so strong through the first 10 episodes that I can't take it lower than that. It's sticking with me. It's been a while since I finished the show, and I still think about it every single day. I think about these characters all the time, and that's not gonna go away just because the last couple episodes were a little bit disappointing for me.

NiNi

Ben, how about you?

Ben

Because I am in the business of recommending things—it's my whole shtick—this is an 8.5. It sits between “BL fans should watch this” and “People who like romance should watch this,” for me. I can't give it a 9 because I feel really strongly about the episode 11/12 caveats. But I don't wanna pretend that I didn't think that this cast did a really great job capturing the nuances of their dynamics. And even if they're let down a little bit by some of the direction and writing choices towards the end, I think that the family portion of this is so good, genuinely. So I do think this show is worth watching for people who enjoy the kinds of narratives the show wants to play with. We just need to understand that it stumbles at the end. 

NiNi?

NiNi

I'm having a hard time with this one because in my head this isn't a BL. If I had to put it into a category in my head, it would get slotted near to something like a Moonlight Chicken or 180 D. But it doesn't have the queer bona fides that either of those have. It feels like a family drama that had a romance in it that happened to be this kid falling in love with somebody who is taking care of him. But the idea of it being a central romance, I just didn't buy. So it was a difficult one for me to rate in terms of how I felt about it as a romance. 

In the end, I ended up at an 8 for the show. I think as a family drama, it's excellent. As a family drama, I would probably give it a 9.5 and as a romance, I would probably give it a 7, and so I wind up somewhere in the middle, which for me is an 8. I feel like it's a solid 8 show.

Ben

It's an 8.5 from The Conversation, recommended with specific reservations!

NiNi

You gotta get that .5 in. It's fine.

Shan

We gotta get it in. We gotta—

Ben

That's just how math works!

Shan

—gotta get it in.

NiNi

I know, I'm allowing you to have math. It was a good show.

Ben

It could have been an excellent show, but hmph!

Shan

So close to being one of my all time favorite dramas. It's fine, I'm just gonna go cry about it.

Ben

You were mad about it, because Shan wasn't even buggin’ me on a Saturday, like, “Go watch this show, Ben. Go watch it right now. Wake up, gay boy! Go watch the show so I can talk.”

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

Ben knew I didn't like the final episodes ‘cause I was not asking him if he watched them yet. [laugh] I was like, I don't wanna talk about it!

00:51:53 - Whither Taiwanese BL?

NiNi 

I want us to talk a little bit about where Taiwanese BL is and what's been happening with it lately and whether it is making the leap in the same ways that other countries appear to be making the leap lately. Whatever that leap is for them. 

I feel in some ways like Taiwanese BL has been a bit stagnant. 

Ben 

Taiwan is a super small country and… politically, they have been a little distracted for a few years! They're not in a position to do a ton more with BL right now. I don't think that we're gonna see a huge sudden surge from Taiwan. The best thing about Unknown is that Taiwan is not out of the game altogether, ‘cause I was real worried! The HIStory franchise is in ruins, and we hadn't really seen something of this production caliber in a while. 

Shan 

I'm with you, Ben. Honestly, when Unknown started airing, I was like, “Oh, thank God, Taiwan can still do it.” I have always been a fan of Taiwanese BLs, which might feel a little bit discordant because [laughs] I am someone who cares a lot about writing and storytelling and story is usually, honestly, the weakest part of Taiwanese BL. They usually don't have good writing. But, what I've always connected to in Taiwanese BLs is, I feel like they have a really good handle on relationship dynamics. They're really good at building characters that connect well with each other emotionally, physically—they've always done really good physical intimacy work in their shows, they usually cast really well for chemistry—and so usually in Taiwanese BLs, it's the characters and the character dynamics that hook me, more than the story. 

So I was really excited to see the high quality Taiwanese production that I knew had a good story underpinning it. I hope to see more. I personally had a great time with Kiseki: Dear To Me, but it is not exactly high art. [laughs] And this run of VBL shows was so bad that I was really losing faith. I had made a commitment that I was going to at least try watching every single Taiwanese BL that comes out. I'm still sticking with that, but I was starting to flag a little bit because some of these shows were so bad. 

So I was so thrilled to see that they still were doing productions of this caliber. And Unknown has been quite successful and got them a lot of positive attention, and so I'm hopeful that they'll be able to continue putting together productions like this, drawing actors of the caliber that they got for this show. I'm more hopeful because this show happened than I was certainly at the end of the year. 

Ben 

I will say the way that the Taiwanese actors talk about the work remains one of my favorite things. I be deep in these cast interviews, seein’ what they have to say about this work, and these Taiwanese boys have really nuanced and complex feelings about the work they're doing playing queer characters. I feel the respect and sometimes the duty they feel to get it right in the way they talk about their characters and the work they're doing. That's why I remain very friendly to… even [laughs] some of the jankiest Taiwanese BLs. These boys take playing queerness seriously. It's really warming for me to know that these guys understand that they're portraying queer people and that queer people will be affected by their portrayals. 

NiNi 

I think I just don't have the connection to Taiwanese drama. I'm coming at this from kdrama, through jdrama, through Thai drama. Taiwan’s the last place that I landed, and I think that I just haven't made the leap yet in terms of style and rhythms and all those other things. Mostly because I don't get to see a lot of it, there is not much. And I think that that definitely impacts how I feel about Taiwanese drama and Taiwanese BL. There are some I love—you know, I'm a staunch lover of HIStory 2: Right or Wrong. You know how I feel about Make Our Days Count. You know how I feel about We Best Love. But none of those, except maybe Right or Wrong, as Shan pointed out, has really stellar writing. 

Ben 

Why would you mention Make Our Days Count? I'm so mad all of a sudden! [laughs]

Shan 

No! Don't go there, Ben. Earmuffs!

NiNi 

We're never gonna get out of a Taiwanese BL conversation without it coming up. It just [laughs] isn’t gonna happen. 

Ben 

[volume raising] Wanna talk about endings for Taiwanese—

Shan

No!

Ben

—BLs?! [laughs]

Shan 

No, we do not! Stop. Pause. NiNi, continue your point. 

NiNi 

What have I done? [laughs] 

Yeah, I agree with Shan that the writing isn't great, and that's maybe one of the reasons that I haven't latched on to Taiwanese BL in the way that I have to others, because I am also a writing person. I can get behind a story for other reasons, and I have. I've gotten behind stories that were not written well because there was some other element of them that really grabbed me, and that's what has happened to me in the Taiwanese BLs that I have liked. But just generally, I don't gravitate in this direction, and there hasn't really been anything yet that makes me wanna gravitate more in this direction?

I recognise the strength of character development. I recognise the fantastic acting in a lotta instances, some of these guys are amazing actors. I just, it hasn't moved me in the kind of ways that I've been moved from other things. And it kinda makes me sad in some ways. I'm still looking for that Taiwanese BL that's gonna grab me by the throat. I haven't found that one yet. I'll keep looking. 

Shan 

It's hard, too, ‘cause like Ben said, it's such a small industry. We don't get that many Taiwanese BLs and we certainly don't get that many of quality. But, I've always really loved the approach to BL that Taiwan brings. 

Ben 

I really feel like when they make BL, somebody in the room is asking how gay people might feel about some of the choices they're making. 

Shan 

I'm gonna keep showing up for Taiwanese BL. I'm gonna keep watching them. I really hope that we get to see more productions of this caliber. I hope that we get to see them working from strong source material, so that the storytelling can really live up to what the casts are bringing. I'm excited to see what comes out next. 

NiNi 

Ray Jiang can stay, though, I like his directorial style. He keeps doing stuff and he hits on something that really pops? I feel like that's the one that's gonna grab me. If I wasn't terrified of what Lin Pei Yu was capable of after Kiseki. If I could get Lin Pei Yu at her best plus Ray Jiang at his best, with basically any of the actors I've ever seen in Taiwanese BL, maybe we'll get something that will grab me by the throat. 

Anyway, that is going to wrap us up on… what's the name of this episode? 

Shan 

Have we decided yet? Hmm. 

Ben 

The State of Taiwan, Taiwanese BL episode, whatever. 

NiNi 

Okay. That is going to wrap us up on our Taiwan episode. We out!

Thank you for being here, Shan. Say bye to the people. 

Shan 

Thank you for having me. Bye, people! 

NiNi 

Say bye to the people, Ben. 

Ben 

Peace.

[sunshinechay]

15 Day BL Challenge! Part 4!

Day 48: If you could switch a BL actor pairing to a different production company, who would you move and to which production company?

Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4

So I had so many ideas for this but I managed to narrow it down to a few different choices but I have one that ended up being perhaps not my first choice but the choice that made me to “ohhhhh!!!!” and figuratively point at it.

James Hayward Prescott to MeMindY

I recently bought and started reading, Love Sand which is Khom and Connor’s story. Khom had been featured in both TharnType and Love Sea with Connor being mentioned in both in some way (a one off mention in TharnType and being an unseen but featured character in Love Sea) and if Mame does actually plan to adapt Love Sand, I think James is a really good choice to play him. So I’m manifesting that he’ll play Connor if Mame decides to do Love Sand. Plus I think it would be fun to see James with blond hair.

Dew and Tor to IdolFactory

Dew has technically already worked with Idolfactory playing more minor characters but I would love to see him return to Idolfactory and to hopefully bring Tor with him. Tor was not treated well by Y Entertainment (no one was but yeah) and I think he might benefit from being able to work with Saint who had has similar experiences to him. Plus I think it would be good for Idolfactory as well as then they would have a more even couple count with 2 BL and 2 GL couples. I think TackPoom may come back together when Tack is finished filming the celebrity boxing show that he is a part of but if that does not happen, I think Dew and Tor would be a good choice. Especially if Saint is not planning to make him return to BL acting permanent.

Lastly

Li Le and Wang Yun Kai to Vidol BL series project.

VBL has produced quite a few Taiwanese BLs that I have enjoyed lately and I would love to see Li Le and Wang Yun Kai work with them. I’m not sure exactly how that would work as they are Mainland China actors while VBL is in Taiwan but if such a thing is possible I would love to see it. Plus I would love to see them work with Nancy Chen again. Something set in the modern era would be fun I think. (Maybe another series featuring the Ever androids).

[krapalm]

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[digitalmore]

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[theside-b]

Leo Huang and Ping Chen Wu as Ever 9 and Chu Yiping across the VBL Series

Stay By My Side (2023) Anti Reset (2024) Eternal Butler (2024 - 2025)

[squeakygeeky]

Vietnamese BL Industry

This is my attempt to make a little bit of sense of the production side of Vietnamese BL. As a tiny bit of background, BL is very popular in Vietnam, especially Thai BL, but it’s hard to get the budget to produce it. At the same time, it attracts international attention, which isn’t common for Vietnamese media. A lot of actors have actually appeared in multiple BLs but Thai-style imaginary couple co-branding doesn’t seem to be much of a thing. Maybe a little playing with that in promo for a specific series, but that’s it. MDL doesn’t include Vietnamese shows so that made this...fun.

@absolutebl​ and @heretherebedork​ already have guides to VBL here and here that describe some of the series mentioned, so check out their blogs, and also feel free to ask my for anything from recommendations to speculation.

A note on names: Vietnamese names go family name - middle name - given name, but a lot of time western name order is used in credits. But also family names aren’t used that much and sometimes are left out even of credits. What is used varies from show to show. So I’m about to be wildly inconsistent and just use whatever I happened to see in whatever credits I was looking at when I made notes, and I was too lazy to include diacritical markers, which often get left out in the credits anyway.

Ho Si Hau/O2 Production

Ho Si Hau has been making BL since at least 2017. In around 2020 he discovered actor Ba Vinh and proceeded to cast him in pretty much everything he’s made since and shows no signs of stopping. O2 is his own production company, but he also directed You Are Ma Boy for D GROUP Media. He has a few actors he works with repeatedly (and I think is their agent). It’s been a rough road (including him being repeatedly accused of fraud and oversharing a bit in his emails) but he’s managed to harness the power of international crowdfunding. He is absolutely a BL director and just desperately wants to continue making more and more BL. I can’t remember him ever including trans or lesbian characters. His works are generally pretty domestic, although he does have one high school series and one in the planning stages. He seems to be trying to explore some interesting themes, like including a temporarily disabled character in Want to See You, touching on the lack of gay marriage with Mr. Cinderella, and some stuff regarding filial piety and child abuse in Nation’s Brother, but a lot of this has been getting lost in execution. Loves a faen fatal way, way, way too much. Based both on behind the scene footage he does seem to workshop his actors for intimacy and the results speak for themselves. 

Want to See You Mr. Cinderella You Are Ma Boy The Most Peaceful Place is Your Place Nation's Brother The Ring Goes Missing Ngày Em Đến Active Boys

Oril Nguyen

Oril Nguyen works mostly with MCV, which produces a lot of things other than BL, but also directed Tien Bromance Extra: My Small Family (we’ll be getting to Tien Bromance in a second). He’s been directing BL since at least 2017. He’s somehow even more domestic than Ho Si Hau and has directed two series where the leads have an adopted child, My Monster in Law 2 and Tien Bromance Extra: My Small Family. My Monster in Law is also notable for including a couple that got legally married in New York prior to the events of the series. He includes trans side characters but no lesbians come to mind. His works are generally light and funny, although I’d say there’s a bit more to Follow My Sunshine and The Promise. Very good at directing intimacy and must also workshop his actors.

The Promise Beef, Cupcakes and Him Hey Rival, I Love You! My Monster in Law Hey! First Love Tien Bromance Extra: My Small Family Follow My Sunshine

Nguyen Huu Tien 

He’s not BL director, but he did direct queer movie Bridge of Destiny, which he did not appear in. He has his own production company, Duoc Si Tien. Yes, this is the Tien Bromance guy. He’s one of the leads in Tien Bromance and Sea Him. I think he at least partially self-funded those. He really loves film and playing with genre and also seems to like attention and appears on reality shows, so I feel like that explains a lot. Expect anything from him to be absolutely wild. Just bonkers. Appears to have a horror movie called Hanh Phuc Mau coming out soon. He’s acted twice in series with Huu Tai, but that’s less co-branding and more that he really likes to work with Huu Tai, who he also cast in Bridge of Destiny.

Thu Ha/Team RL 

Director of the excellent Stupid Boys, Stupid Love and then the connected You Are My Sunshine and You Are My Stupid Boy. Stupid Boys, Stupid Love included a GL couple with a butch character. The first of those seemed to have the highest production value and was the best one. The Star Always Follow You is coming out soon from Team RL, presumably with the same director and definitely using familiar actors, including the BL couple from SBSL/YAMSB being paired again. The two most recent series suffered from low production quality. Low heat, but good chemistry and the low heat works for the cute high school settings.

Huy Hung/CifTV  

CifTV’s production is fairly low budget and they do a lot of chat based shows instead of live action. Their live action series are also low budget and range from ok to truly terrible. Huy Hung directed My Little Sister, an actual GL, for them and was previously an editor for CifTV’s Neighbor Guy, Roommate, and My Brother. My Little Sister is high school and stepsister’s trope but not as bad as I was expecting based on those two facts and my other experiences with CifTV. Huy Hung also directed the unfinished GL School’s Out Let’s Date Now for TBR, but is most notable for directing My Lascivious Boss for Pap, which had a relatively decent budget and script and which I really like. Great range of gender and sexuality representation overall. Not good at directing intimacy, expect dead fish kisses, if any. Works with Nam Mario from MLB a lot.

Danny/AB Studio 

Danny writes and directs, wrote Fools, didn’t direct it. Directed Stage of Love, Vietnam’s only uni BL (unless I got my vocab wrong and it was set in high school). AB released one episode of The Letters, but nothing else BL since then and were last co-producing a het highschool series. Would love to see them back on the BL side.

609 tv

I don’t really know what to put here. They don’t produce BL technically? They mostly make commercials and movies that basically function as public service announcements about stuff like HIV and PrEP (I assume this gets them funding), aimed at a gay male audience. One of these, Hy, was screened at the US Consulate. Si was depressing, don’t watch it. Threesome Game was fun. Handsome Doctor, a medical cross-dressing comedy promoting feminism and mental health treatment, featured a bunch of familiar BLish tropes for some reason despite not being a romance and having a straight (but gnc) female lead, and made no sense whatsoever as a thing that existed, but I adored it and wish had gotten past two episodes. 

Holy Thang/YoungLife TiVi

Used to work with 609, has his own production company now. Directed Football Guys, A Love Song for My Beloved, and Memory. I’ve only seen A Love Song for My Beloved and it was bad. The only VBL director I am actively avoiding.

[heretherebedork]

Dat is just ridiculously in love with Bach and it's adorable.

[respectthepetty]

Saw your "Anti Reset" post, nice to see another Taiwanese BL enthusiast here. I mean, I love my Thai BLs (I don't think anything will top "Not Me" & "KinnPorsche" for me) but when Taiwanese BLs do it right, BOY OH BOY do they do it RIGHT! I def love mafia/action BLs, and "HIStory3 Trapped" was my first venture into that. I was kind of in a BL slump in 2023, and the only BL that I thoroughly enjoyed was "Kiseki: Dear to Me." I'm LOVING "Anti Reset" so far, though!

Anon,

I LOVE Taiwanese BLs.

In fact, this post is link happy since I'm constantly writing about my love for Taiwanese BLs because I love them so much!

10 Reasons I Love Taiwanese BLs

Top 5 Taiwanese BLs

An appreciation post for Taiwanese BLs

Taiwanese BLs & Blinding Light of Love

Why I Love Taiwanese BLs

Fave and Least Fave HIStory Series

But my absolute favorite BL (not just Taiwanese, but ALL TIME FAVORITE OF ALL BLS) is HIStory 4: Close to You.

I love all of HIStory 4

I love Li Cheng and Mu Ren's relationship

Kiseki: Dear to Me was *this* close to taking over as number one in my heart, which is why it won my top Colors Award this year, and Oh No! Here Comes Trouble came in fighting without it even being labeled as a BL. Taiwan is competing against itself in my heart!

Although Thailand's Dead Friend Forever might surpass HIStory 4: Close to You, which is very dependent on the last few episodes, I consistently enjoy Taiwanese BLs more than any other country's offerings. Even the HIStory-that-shall-not-be-named was a great experience until the second it wasn't, but now we get the apology tour in every other Taiwanese BL.

I will love any BL Taiwan throws at me, so I was thrilled VBL/Vidol gave me four in the span of half a year, which includes our current favorite, Anti Reset!

And I'm looking forward to the slate of upcoming Taiwanese BLs that appear to have some big names behind them, like Unknown WHICH STARTS TOMORROW, is based off the book from Priest who also wrote Guardian and Word of Honor, and will feature We Best Love's Sam Lin!

And I'm also excited to see my HIStory 4: Close to You favorite Charles Tu back in this year's First Note of Love with the side from My Tooth, Your Love. It's about singing, yet I don't give an eff because that's how much I love Taiwanese BLs that even singing will not deter me!

I will always support the girls, the gays, and the goths no matter the country of origin, but no other country is giving me this energy.

And I fucking love it!

TAIWAN SUPREMACY!

[absolutebl]

This Week in BL

June 2023 Wk 3 

Being a highly subjective assessment of one tiny corner of the interwebs. Organized by which ones (in each category) I’m enjoying most.

Ongoing Series - Thai

Step By Step (Tues WeTV & Gaga) ep 9 of 12 - There sure is a lot of drinking in this show (who am I to talk?). Omg so awkward: The not-break-up not-confession. I have heartburn. Also I could not watch Jeng break down. Just nope. Then time jump? If that was our DOOM episode the timing is off. Or next week is the final? Or we get 3 eps of domestic bliss and sexitimes? I’m confused. 

La Pluie (Sat iQIYI) ep 9 of 10 - I like how trope-subversive this show is - first soulmates, then love triangle, now the faen fatal. NO SINGING. Oh good. They didn’t! Yay! So yeah I still love it. But I am also still a touch scared of where it might go. This one can’t be trusted. 

Be My Favorite (Fri YouTube) ep 5 of 12 - not a bad ep this week or was I too drunk to register nuance and damage? You decide. Trash watch here.

Luminous Solution (Sat Gaga) ep 5 of 6 - I always have to psyche myself up to watch this show, because I want to fast forward through most of it, but it’s on Gaga so that’s damn near impossible. At least this is the penultimate episode. I think after 3 BLs I can safely say Gun is just not a good actor. Speaking of... crying clothed in the shower? I haven’t seen that trope in years. But I LOVE the high school boys and their story so much. Love Sick level of earnest floppy goodness, I’m such a sucker for this kind of romance. I want them to be in a completely different BL. I’m so conflicted. I NEED this show to end so I can decide how I feel about it.

Ongoing Series - Not Thai

Love Tractor (Korea Weds iQIYI) eps 5-6 of 8 - So much is happening, evil x-boyfriend shows up. We got flashbacks to coming-out drama + nasty dad (super unusual for a KBL). But baby’s first taste of desire is hilarious. This one is full of lovely contrasts, and contrasting life experiences. It’s all about support and neglect. 

Tokyo in April AKA Shigatsu no Tokyo wa (Japan Thurs Gaga) ep 2 of 8 - Very much full of hero worship and giving me My Beautiful Man vibes (only softer and office set). “Dazzling” = always an interesting word when it comes up in JBL subs. It’s clearly a Japanese word/concept like kawaii  that is more complex than the English word being used. Meanwhile, this being Japan we get lots of hints as to separation and dark past events. 

Tie The Knot (prev Under the Same Sky) (Pinoy YouTube) eps 1-2 of 8 - From OXIN Films (Rainbow Prince), based on a true story (?!), Briggs's family runs a bridal business but he has never fallen in love until he meets a groom to be in an arranged marriage. EXACTLY the same premise at Mame’s forthcoming Wedding Planner. There are so many characters and prospective couples (including a v bi girl with a female fuck buddy, not seen that in a BL before) that it is a little hard to keep straight (heh). I’m sure it will shake out. It’s intriguing so far, if a touch silly. I actually like the arranged marriage premise because the two rich kids involved in it are so weirdly kind & platonically sweet to each other, even if they’re both on the same page about it only being for show. 

Vian the series (Vietnam YouTube ) ep 7 & 8 of 12 - Apparently there is very little difference between a cat and a demanding princess of a boyfriend. That clocks. Basically this was the dating times. 

Naked Dinner AKA Zenra Meshi (Japan Fri Gaga) ep 11 of 12 - There is a lot more meat to this silly little BL then I thought there would be given the premise, but it’s Japan so that’s as it should be. But, as it’s Japan there’s also a little too much cringe for me. I do enjoy how generous Japan is with late bloomers and I would def like to host a kimchi party  but otherwise... meh. 

Stupid Genius (Vietnam Fri YouTube) ep 3 of 6 - Bi erasure still alive and well I see. This one remains fine for VBL but no more than that.

It’s airing but ...

House of Stars (Thai Mon iQIYI) 12 eps - I bounced at ep 3. Will binge if told it is worth it at end.

Stay (Pinoy YouTube) 7 eps - It’s mostly in English and set in LA so I’m not bothering but the first one did drop.

Ever After (Pinoy YouTube) - I investigated but as spies reported it's a real mess (not a hot one). Don’t bother. 

About Us but Not About Us (Pinoy Prime?) - from 2022 supposed to be finally getting inter distribution, didn’t show in my territory. A professor grieving the loss of his partner meets an ambitious literature student. I’m not fussed. 

Stay With Me ... NO! 

In case you missed it

What Did You Eat Yesterday movie, BL Express posted a review. I’ve yet to get hold of it but if you enjoy Our Dining Table this is it’s grown up parent series & movie. 

Café in Love - I finally got around to watching this. And frankly it hits all the tropes but is so damn bad. The setting is cute, the central brotherly relationship is sweet, the side cast is v queer (baby gay has all these auntie queens catting about) and some complex bisexual awakenings but… but… everything else is a chemistry void. Some fun language wordplay and exploration of cultural tropes like cheek kissing does not save it from an unnecessary amount of punching  and a but ton of sexual harassment and statutory rape. No thank you. I had to rewatch Destiny Seeker to get over this. 3/10 

I gave up 

Takumi-kun Series 6: Nagai Nagai Monogatari no Hajimari no Asa (Japan Sun ????) 10 eps - NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS and no, I have no idea where to get it, why would I? Apparently it finished. I still can’t find it but it’ll be off this list next week.

Why You (Khmer ????) - Billed as a horror romance, not sure if this is a movie or a series where it aired... nothing except that it exists.

Next Week Looks Like This:

3 BLs are finishing but nothing is starting up. We running lean these days. 

Just started today (Sunday): Dinosaur Love (Thai iQIYI) Trailer 10 eps - from Ultimate Troop about a uni student, Rak, whose partner cheats on him with Rak's best friend. This gives bad boy hazer Dino an opportunity to hit on Rak at last. From The Yearbook people so I shouldn’t watch this as it airs. After Remember Me? I swore never again with them. But there’s so little on right now, I might fall on the pulp sword. 

I’ll include it in next week’s summation. 

I’ll have the July 2023 upcoming for you next week too. 

2023 forthcoming BL master post (see comments, some are inaccurate, NOT KEPT UPDATED)

THIS WEEK’S BEST MOMENTS

I love him, Your Honor. (Be My Favorite... HIM, he’s my favorite.) 

I love them, Your Honor. (Luminous Solution) 

Watch a tiny GL ship set sail across the seas of overly optimistic tumblrs... (La Pluie)

MY PRECIOUS! OMG I LOVE HER SO MUCH. (Tie the Knot) 

Incidentally, I would like a future as a dictatorial elder queer running a slightly shady business fleecing the straights via their dumb marriage traditions surrounded by nubile half-naked hotties.

And ya know what? I think this is achievable life goal for me. 

Gotta go, I have a future to plan. 

(Last week.)

[casorasi]

Tom Sox rally past Express to take Game 1 of VBL Championship Series

The Charlottesville Tom Sox are one win away from their second Valley Baseball League championship in three years. Tom Sox rally past Express to take Game 1 of VBL Championship Series